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标题: 费厄泼赖？ [打印本页]

作者: 武宜子 时间: 2012-2-13 15:41
标题: 费厄泼赖？
这四字成一词组，但恐怕不是常人常用的辞语，可它是被《新华词典》（大字本，1988年修订版）正式收入的正经词条(第271页)。

在论述这词语的来源及用法之前，先说说这么一个现象：常常有人讨论一些中文词语远涉重洋，落户于西方语言之中，比如：功夫、苦力、工合、好久不见、等等，这些词到英文里，成了：kung fu，coolie，gung ho, long time no see。前不久在网上还看到有人说，英文casino一词是来自福建，据说是福建话(闽南话?)里赌场一词的读音和casino相似，这事真假待考。

有意思的是，这些中国话来到英文之后，有些词的意思逐步远离中国话的意思。比如说gung ho一词，匪夷所思的是它的中文原文是“工业合作社”，英文将这名称的缩写“工合”引进了：gung he，并把这名词改作形容词，意思是：enthusiastic或excited(来美还挺爱用gung ho这词)，大概是在那工业合作社期间，人们的工作热情总是那么高涨亢奋。

英文词汇来到中文安家落户的好像不是太多。但在旧上海时期不少，比如，“拿摩温”是“工头”的意思，来自英文的“number one”；“司伯灵”是弹簧锁，来自英文的spring；“番司”是人脸(face)；而“司卫脱”就是套衫(sweater)。但这些洋泾浜话，都是谐音于上海土话。再有，毛的革命成功后，上海滩地位下沉，这些洋泾浜便不再流行。

英文词汇真正进入普通话的也不是没有，比如，马达是来自motor；引擎就是engine。现在，全国人民都开始喜欢一个新的英文词，叫hold。对这词儿，一时还没见有好的谐音字出现，可能是汉语中平声的hou音字不多。建议大家考虑用左旁是“鼻”右旁是“句”的“hou”（一声--这个字键盘上打不出来)。这样，意思上合适：要你hou住了，就得hou的大气儿不出。

现在说我们今天题面：“费厄泼赖”。它也是来自英文，叫fair play，意思很简单，大伙一看就明白：就是体育竞技、政治经济利益分配或社会各色人等交往中的公平原则。西方民主政体中，公平原则是人们追求的目标(虽然尚不能完全达成这个目标)，所以各个利益群体都很在乎社会政策的公平原则。

有趣的是《新华词典》对“费厄泼赖”条目的解释说这是“资产阶级绅士在政治斗争中…以此相标榜并加以宣传”。

看来，中文对“费厄泼赖”是以批判的眼光接受，而英文对“工合”的引进是不顾原文自创一路，这种语言交流中无奈的互不尊重对方，我们也就暂且看作是另一类的Fair Play吧！

作者: Dracula 时间: 2012-2-14 00:20
From Oxford English Dictionary

casino, n.
Etymology:  < Italian casino small house, dim of casa house < Latin casa cottage
1. A pleasure-house, a summer-house (in Italy).
2. A public room used for social meetings; a club-house; esp. a public music or dancing saloon
3. A game of cards
4. A building for gambling, often with other amenities. (Now the usual sense.)

gung ho, n.
Etymology:  Chinese kung work + ho together.
A slogan adopted in the war of 1939–1945 by the United States Marines under General E. Carlson (1896–1947); hence as adj.: enthusiastic, eager, zealous.

1942 Times Mag. (N.Y.) 8 Nov. 13/4 Borrowing an idea from China, Carlson frequently has what he calls ‘kung-hou’ meetings.‥ Problems are threshed out and orders explained.

1943 Life 20 Sept. 58, I [sc. E. Carlson] told them of the motto of the Chinese Co-operatives, Gung Ho. It means Work Together.‥ My motto caught on and they began to call themselves the Gung Ho Battalion.

coolie, n.

Etymology:  Origin uncertain; probably spec. use of Koli n. or its ultimately etymon Gujarati Koḷī (because members of this group frequently worked as labourers or performed menial tasks), probably after Portuguese cule local hired labourer in India (and later also China) (1581 as qule ; apparently also < Gujarati Koḷī , Kulī ), both perhaps partly influenced by Tamil kūli hire, payment for occasional menial work (forming the first element of kūlikkāraṉ and kuliyāḷ hireling) or a related Dravidian word. Compare Urdu qulī ( < Gujarati koḷī ), perhaps influenced by the unrelated Ottoman Turkish qul slave, subject (Turkish kul ). In sense 1a now in the Indian vernaculars generally: Gujarati kulī , Hindi kūlī , kulī , Bengali kuli , etc., and Tamil kūli , Telugu kūlī (as opposed to kūli hire), etc., all probably ultimately < English (or perhaps < Portuguese).
With sense 1b compare Afrikaans koelie , apparently < English. Compare Dutch koelie (1642, only with reference to colonies in Asia and the Americas).

With uses referring to China (compare e.g. quot. 1745 at sense 1a) compare Chinese kŭlì , apparently < English.

So coolie and casino are not originated from Chinese. And your description of origin of gung ho is inaccurate.

作者: lihbalps 时间: 2012-2-14 08:42
这个词不是鲁迅引进来的么？？
费厄泼赖应该缓行那个，很经典的文章啊……

作者: 草蜢 时间: 2012-2-14 08:48
本帖最后由草蜢于 2012-2-14 08:56 编辑

Dracula 发表于 2012-2-14 00:20 2 t8 L/ b* W1 J% }/ T
From Oxford English Dictionary9 O; U3 t& h; k
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casino, n.

这个要说明一下，gung-ho 是美式英语。确实是从“工合”演变来滴。这里面有一个中国人民的老朋友，老牌共产党员和一位美军陆战队少校的故事。Oxford 字典是错误滴，毕竟是英国人，不晓得这段历史。

作者: 草蜢 时间: 2012-2-14 09:17
还有个东东叫台风。本来是欧洲人来到中国东南沿海从中国渔民听说的东东(粤语或闽南语中“大风”的发音)。英语就多了一个叫Typhoon的词语。

洋人的话语是很吃香滴，于是很快大风—>Typhoon又出口转内销回到了中国和日本，变成了“台风”。

作者: 武宜子 时间: 2012-2-17 12:17

草蜢发表于 2012-2-14 09:17 $ P) P c% p3 R3 W9 P
还有个东东叫台风。本来是欧洲人来到中国东南沿海从中国渔民听说的东东(粤语或闽南语中“大风”的发音)。英 ...

同意你对台风的说法。这也算南方话做了一件好事。其实这台风和飓风是一回事，没这typhoon，也许中文就的引进hurricane，那就不定用什么样的谐音字(说不定会是"合力啃"之类的)。

作者: 武宜子 时间: 2012-2-17 12:35

Dracula 发表于 2012-2-14 00:20 - i! E, W8 b* n
From Oxford English Dictionary3 w( P+ p; d% R$ v
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casino, n.

难怪毛老人家说"怕就怕认真二字“，你搬出了牛典，当是权威。不过权威有时不留神也出差，对gung ho一词就是这样。参见下面老草的解说。

我们读了你的牛典，你也学了正确的gung ho。相互学习。建议，如今美国话成主流，英国话逐步成为方言。所以参用词典时，也许也需要翻读美国词典。

作者: Dracula 时间: 2012-2-17 14:21

武宜子发表于 2012-2-17 12:35 . [2 U# |; R4 m# [' S
难怪毛老人家说"怕就怕认真二字“，你搬出了牛典，当是权威。不过权威有时不留神也出差，对gung ho一词就 ...

首先草蜢所说同OED并不矛盾。我觉得你没有仔细看我引的词源和例子。gung ho一词，我没有说你完全错，而是不准确。第二，OED20卷，2万2千页，是公认的英语使用的权威，没有任何其它英语字典在篇幅上甚至接近，Webster's Third International Dictionary只有2800页。尤其是词源和词的意思和使用的历史变迁，没有第二本英语字典可以和它相比。OED的数据库里同样包含着大量美国英语以及其它英语的使用例子，并不象你想像的那样只是英国英语。象gung ho 一词OED引的例子，Time 和Life 都是美国的杂志。

关于typhoon，同样是来自OED

Etymology: Two different Oriental words are included here: (1) the α-forms (like Portuguese tufão , †tufõe ) are < Urdu (Persian and Arabic) ṭūfān a violent storm of wind and rain, a tempest, hurricane, tornado, commonly referred to Arabic ṭāfa , to turn round (nouns of action ṭauf , ṭawafān ), but possibly an adoption of Greek τῡϕῶν typhon n.2; (2) the β- and γ- forms represent Chinese tai fung , common dialect forms (as in Cantonese) of ta big, and fêng wind (hence also German teifun ). The spelling of the β-forms has apparently been influenced by that of the earlier-known Indian word, while that now current is due to association with typhon n.2

因此typhoon有两个词源，一个是汉语，一个是波斯语和阿拉伯语

作者: 草蜢 时间: 2012-2-17 16:30
本帖最后由草蜢于 2012-2-17 16:35 编辑

Dracula 发表于 2012-2-17 14:21 7 L0 u+ N* r5 M( @! a
因此typhoon有两个词源，一个是汉语，一个是波斯语和阿拉伯语

吸血老大，这个说法有待商量哈。

也就是说Typhoon来源有两种说法。俺倾向与第二种说法，及中国南方方言。

原因如下：

英语中有 Typhoon 和Hurricane

但现实使用中 Typhoon 是特指西太平洋（也就是中国，日本，菲律宾沿海地段）地区的“台风”，而 Hurricane一般用于描绘太平洋东北部（美国，加拿大沿岸）和北大西洋特别是加勒比海，墨西哥湾等大西洋西岸的“台风”。至少在美国是这样滴。

所以俺比较怀疑波斯，阿拉伯或希腊词源，因为描写滴根本不是那嘎达窝子滴自然现象。

作者: 草蜢 时间: 2012-2-17 16:40

Dracula 发表于 2012-2-17 14:21 - P. t( M+ t U
首先草蜢所说同OED并不矛盾。我觉得你没有仔细看我引的词源和例子。gung ho一词，我没有说你完全错，而是 ...

是酱紫滴，牛典关于Gung Ho说的不全，也就是说对了关于美国海军陆战队部分，但没有交代清楚美国海军陆战队的将军Carlson同志咋弄来这个词语滴。改时间，俺写个帖子讲讲。

作者: 武宜子 时间: 2012-2-18 12:56

Dracula 发表于 2012-2-17 14:21 . g: X0 S# i8 k3 r5 `1 U
首先草蜢所说同OED并不矛盾。我觉得你没有仔细看我引的词源和例子。gung ho一词，我没有说你完全错，而是 ...

Citing OED again? It's just a tongue-in-cheek, "witty" write-up. There is nothing right or wrong. Loosen up, Dracula (It sounds a bit draconian).

Let's try not to get there, though your perseverance is much appreciated!

作者: 大阿吉 时间: 2012-2-22 22:49
合情推断，应该是有影响
Tiphon "violent storm, whirlwind, tornado," 1550s, from Gk. typhon "whirlwind," personified as a giant, father of the winds, perhaps from typhein "to smoke" (cf. typhus). The meaning "cyclone, violent hurricane of India or the China Seas" (1580s) is first recorded in T. Hickock's translation of an account in Italian of a voyage to the East Indies by Caesar Frederick, a merchant of Venice:

concerning which Touffon ye are to vnderstand, that in the East Indies often times, there are not stormes as in other countreys; but euery 10. or 12. yeeres there are such tempests and stormes, that it is a thing incredible, but to those that haue seene it, neither do they know certainly what yeere they wil come. ["The voyage and trauell of M. Caesar Fredericke, Marchant of Venice, into the East India, and beyond the Indies"]

This sense of the word, in reference to titanic storms in the East Indies, first appears in Europe in Portuguese in the mid-16th century. It aparently is from tufan, a word in Arabic, Persian, and Hindi meaning "big cyclonic storm." Yule ["Hobson-Jobson," London, 1903] writes that "the probability is that Vasco [da Gama] and his followers got the tufao ... direct from the Arab pilots." The Arabic word sometimes is said to be from Gk. typhon, but other sources consider it purely Semitic, though the Greek word might have influenced the form of the word in English. Al-tufan occurs several times in the Koran for "a flood or storm" and also for Noah's Flood. Chinese (Cantonese) tai fung "a great wind" also might have influenced the form or sense of the word in English, and that term and the Indian one may have had some mutual influence; toofan still means "big storm" in India.

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