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标题: 俄国商报关于Mariupol的最新报道 [打印本页]

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-20 05:30
标题: 俄国商报关于Mariupol的最新报道
Kommersant（俄国商报，又名“生意人报”）是私人拥有的俄罗斯全国性报纸，创刊于1909年，内容多偏向经济与时政新闻。记者Alexander Chernykh和摄影师Anatoly Zhdanov最近去了一趟Mariupol，做了这篇战地采访。因为谈话内容中提到莫斯科号沉没，所以应该就是这两天的事情。原文是俄语，靠着Google Translate也可以看个大概其。把机器翻译的英文内容拷贝一下，以防万一链接打不开。原文中有大量照片和录像。

读后感：乱世人命如草芥，出门打水、干活，无缘无故飞来一颗子弹或者炮弹，好端端的一个人就没了。谁打的？不知道。绝大部分老百姓根本区分不了乌军和俄军，都穿一样的军装。俄军对老百姓挺好，乌军也并不是中文媒体中的“纳粹杀人狂”。老百姓痛恨俄军吗？并不见得；痛恨乌军吗？更是没影的事儿。就像采访的那两个劈柴的乌克兰老妇人讲，

“You know, we were not happy with everything. The pension is small, yes. Utilities are expensive. We were dissatisfied with our mayor, it's true. So what? You probably scold yours too?

“It happens,” I confess.

- “Well, you see. But these are common problems. It was not worth demolishing our entire city because of such problems.”

当记者跟一个老头解释俄国人管这个叫“特别军事行动”，为了把俄族人从纳粹手中“解放”出来，老头说

That is, they decided to cut our hair, but at the same time they took off our shoes and stripped us and left us without a home.

老太太们忍饥挨饿，无医无药的心脏病患者半夜死在家里。。。记者镜头所见，Mariupol现在仍然是尸横遍野（见录像）- 乌军不见踪影，俄军无暇顾及，百姓战战兢兢不敢上街，大量平民卧尸街头，无人收敛。人间地狱莫过于此。

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Military operation in Ukraine 18.04.2022, 17:31

“Here you learn quickly, otherwise you die quickly”

Correspondents of "Kommersant" transmit from Mariupol

Over the weekend in Mariupol, the battles between the Russian army and the Ukrainian military, who had settled on the territory of the Azovstal plant, continued. In other parts of the city, there seems to be no more shooting - but civilians lack food and communication with lost relatives. Kommersant journalist Alexander Chernykh and photographer Anatoly Zhdanov listened to the story of a military man from the DPR, talked with the townspeople about their problems and attended a "yard" funeral.

Soldiers of the volunteer battalion "Akhmat" on the territory of the Mariupol Ilyich Iron and Steel Works
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

We leave Donetsk early in the morning, when a high-rise building with a huge inscription: “Russian Donbass” is still hidden by thick fog. We quickly skip the first roadblocks. On the road we overtake an armored personnel carrier; it’s damn cold, but a girl in camouflage sits right on the armor, her long blond hair ruffled by the wind. On the sleeve there is a bandage of certain colors, a distinctive sign of the Russian and pro-Russian military. Our driver clicks his tongue admiringly: “Oh, good! In the fourteenth year, we also had a lot of fighting girls ... "

I have known him for the second day, but I already know: he was one of those residents of Slavyansk who “were the first to join Strelkov then” (meaning the entrance to the city of Igor Strelkov’s detachment in the spring of 2014; it is believed that from that moment the conflict in the south -East of Ukraine went into the armed plane . - "Kommersant" ). Wound, two shell shocks, retreat; since then he has been living in Donetsk and has not seen his home and family for eight years. But to the question: “Was it worth it?” replies: "Sure." But the current Strelkov disappoints him, and Russia "came very late."

We pass an empty border post, solidly fortified with tires and reinforced with trenches. “For eight years they dug up, well done,” the driver grunts through his teeth. Further - the territory, which until recently was controlled by Ukraine. We rush along the track along the fields, turning green with spring grass; sometimes there are black bald spots in it - funnels from shells. There are signs stuck on the roadsides: a skull with crossbones and one word in Russian: “Mina”. Similar warnings are also found in Ukrainian, only in the format of a large billboard and with a clarification: you can’t drive off the road. Finally, before us are the ruins of a small mining town. Houses and shops are broken and empty. I take a picture of them through the window, but the driver laughs: “This is not a war yet. This is history. As the Union collapsed, here everything gradually began to close and crumble. And you ask why all this began.

By the way, I didn't ask anything.

There is a hitch at the "Donetsk" checkpoint. Where journalists were allowed to pass without problems for the past three days, now the passage is prohibited - without explanation. You have to go around for a long time, past small identical villages - no longer seem to be Ukrainian, but it is still unclear whose. Pastoral pictures of rural life flash by - people are planting potatoes in a vegetable garden, sweeping the area near a small church ... And a couple of minutes later - a burned-out roadside cafe; a little further towards us, a small group of military vehicles with the letters Z on their armor is driving towards us. Sometimes the mangled skeletons of cars turn black outside the window.

In front of Mariupol is another checkpoint. Here, a long column of civilian cars stands at the exit; almost all of them have white rags tied on their antennas and door handles, many of them have the inscription on the glass and sides: "Children". A poster is lying on the side of the road: "Take me to Gorlovka, Donetsk." Another couple of kilometers - and begins what was once a city.

Multi-storey residential buildings damaged by shelling
Photo: Kommersant / Anatoly Zhdanov  /  buy photo

The situation in Mariupol
Photo: Kommersant / Alexander Chernykh  /  buy a photo

The inscription on the door of a residential building in Mariupol
Photo: Kommersant / Alexander Chernykh  /  buy a photo

High-rise buildings stick out like charred matches: the first floors seem to be intact, but everything is black above - the apartments are burned out or destroyed. The low houses seem to have been gnawed from different sides - the shells tore whole pieces out of them. Road signs are like a sieve. Under the sign “Flowers” is a door on which “People” is written from a spray can.

The diabolical selectivity is striking: a bus burnt to the ground is standing near an intact stop. The ruins of a small shopping center - and next to it is a red billboard "VIP furniture second floor". At the destroyed five-story building there is an untouched kiosk; everything around is black, but here a football fan with a bottle of beer smiles from a bright advertising poster. At the remnants of the gas station is a snow-white tank with the inscription: "Fireless". On a pole, the yellow-blue Ukrainian flag is fluttering in the wind; next to it, the Russian tricolor flutters over an auto parts store; both of them seem like foreign details against the background of a five-story black-out daughter building.

The most terrible thing is that the streets of Mariupol are indistinguishable from dozens of Russian cities. On the first floors there are exactly the same pharmacies, flower shops, beer pourers and bank branches. Only the brands are different - but now this difference has been erased. Or rather, it burned down.

This part of Mariupol is relatively crowded - here you can get humanitarian aid. Residents of other neighborhoods get on bicycles, some take away rations in shopping carts or baby carriages.

Queue for humanitarian aid
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

We're driving on; journalistic accreditation allows you to quickly cross city checkpoints. We stop at random at the destroyed "children's cafe"; on the lawn there is a sign “Entrance to the store strictly in a mask”, next to it is a matte metal cylinder with the inscription: “RDG-P”. This is how 2020 meets 2022.

I go into the yard of another "bitten" house. I shoot bright woolen socks with my phone, which are dried on the window grate. And I hear behind my back:

“Don’t take pictures here, please. It makes me sad that people see this.

Ilona* looks about 60 years old, she is wearing a sports fleece jacket (once light) and greasy ski trousers; hands with peeling manicure clutch a dirty board. She catches my eye: “You young man, tell me, is it possible for a woman to look like that?”

- Can a woman cut wood? comes from the other end of the yard. Ilona's friend - in a sweatshirt, a scarf and soiled ugg boots - is sawing a similar board with a hacksaw right on a concrete flower bed. - By the way, I have a higher education.

- And I have two, - says Ilona. - I was an economist until retirement. It doesn't look like it, does it? You don’t look at how we look now - we haven’t washed since February, today for the first time we managed to wash our socks. And so - we are the same as you in Russia.

Carrying out a special military operation in Mariupol
Photo: Alexander Chernykh, Kommersant

The women agree to talk, but strictly forbid turning on the recorder: “Who knows what kind of power there will be. And she won't like it."

“We lived just like you,” Ilona repeats. “We drank coffee in coffee houses, went to the cinema, to the Philharmonic. We know what the Philharmonic was! And what a theatre!

Yes I know. Now the whole world knows about the Mariupol theater.

- Although I am a pensioner, I am active, I went skiing every winter. I had a pension, I had a contribution, albeit small, but mine, honestly earned. I knew what would happen to me tomorrow. And what will happen to my life now? Nothing left.

— Are you from Russia? her friend says. — And what do you say about us in Russia?

- They say on TV that our military has released you.

- Released? Ilona raises her voice. And what did you free us from? From our Philharmonic? From our pension? From our city? Well thank you. You know, on February 23, we called and wrote all day, congratulating our familiar men. Yes, there is no such holiday in Ukraine. But we do remember him. They called and congratulated. And a day later - it began ... And with whom! With people who celebrated the same holiday the day before.

— So you had a good life in Ukraine?

- This is a provocative question, - Ilona abruptly cuts off the conversation and even takes a step back. - I know what you want. I will not answer such a question.

“And I will answer,” the second woman says calmly. “You know, we were not happy with everything. The pension is small, yes. Utilities are expensive. We were dissatisfied with our mayor, it's true. So what? You probably scold yours too?

“It happens,” I confess.

- Well, you see. But these are common problems. It was not worth demolishing our entire city because of such problems.

Gradually, Ilona thaws and begins to tell me how wonderful Mariupol was two months ago:

— We had such a clean city, the cleanest in Ukraine. And now such dirt... It's so unpleasant for me... We'll clean the yard ourselves, but what should we do with the city? Where is our mayor?

And who is our mayor now? her friend adds.

Finally, Ilona invites me to come and see the real Mariupol, "when everything is over." When I leave the yard, she calls out to me:

- And in a good way - come and help yourself to clean it all up.

Wait at the gate

An elderly man rides a bicycle on one of the streets in the Pravoberezhny district of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

The next stop is at a barricade made of burnt utility vehicles. From it I go out to the shot car, broken glass crunches under my feet. There's a dead man in the driver's seat. Head on the steering wheel, face no longer even white, but ash gray. I know that it is impossible to approach the bodies, they can be mined. Therefore, I turn around and leave without even knowing whether it is a man or a woman. White shreds hang dejectedly on the door handles of the car. They didn't help.

A few meters later, another body; a dead person lies on his stomach, someone covered his head with a jacket. He smells noticeably, you want to plug your nose and turn away. Suddenly, a sound like a shot is heard from above; my heart makes a dozen beats per second at once, my face is on fire, my jaws clench themselves to a crunch. I freeze and raise my head. On the surviving balcony of one of the upper floors stands a girl with a towel in her hands. She looks into my eyes and shakes the rag once more loudly. I look away first.

A little further * - the "location" of the DPR detachment. The Russian military (with the exception of the Chechens) refuse to talk to journalists without the permission of their superiors; "Donetsk" have no such restrictions. Fighter Ivan * - very young, a little over twenty - easily agrees to take us "where it is interesting." He seems to be just bored right now. He offers to show the place of recent battles, the complex of buildings of the Azovmash plant.

“Here is their house of culture,” he nods to the side in relation to the whole building with broken windows. “A week ago I was still under dill. I was then just here trehsotil a little (army slang, "three hundredth" means "wounded" - "Kommersant" ). But then they rolled them all out, completely.

- Where did you get to?

- Yes, it didn’t hit, it’s different here ... Look, this alley was then completely shot through. Either a machine gun or snipers. And in order to enter the Palace of Culture, we had to run from the yard right here, where we are standing.

Feeling cold in the stomach.

- Well, we ran in zigzags ... The commander ran first, the sniper fired - past. I'm second, he's past again. But there, farther, near the corner, there is such a hole - and I flew into it. Because he went with another armor, he was about twenty kilograms. He lost his balance and crashed with all his might, turning his hand on the broken glass.

Another “Donetsk” comes up - a plump young guy with glasses, not at all like a soldier.

“Listen, we were just talking to civilians…” he begins.

“But they didn’t say they would take their blind man’s buffaloes?” Ivan interrupts him. “They have been lying there, the poor ones, for a week and a half. Will start falling apart soon.

- Yes, I know ... well, they seem to have found people there, they will already figure it out.

Who cleans up the bodies here? I ask.

— Local, — says Ivan. — On the sly, who knows whom. And if no one knows ... well, these two lie, I know for sure, for a week. It was also lucky that it was cold here. Only now it starts to warm up, and the aromas are already starting ... not lavender at all. The locals are also already crazy about life like this: “The earth is frozen, we can’t dig.” They think it's our responsibility, right? Okay, let's go to hell. Danila*, stand by, I'll give a tour for the press.

Why Vladimir Zelensky does not trust anyone
In the post-Soviet space, such places are called abandoned. Usually these are the ruins of Soviet factories or military units - empty workshops and abandoned buildings where schoolchildren play stalkers. And here, too, it seems to be a typical abandoned place - charred iron, broken glass, some documents, a crumpled honors board, a standard alley of stunted Christmas trees, which ends with a bust of a Soviet man important for the plant. But what to tell, you already know if you were born at the turn of the 80s and 90s.

Only burnt tanks usually do not stand in the abandoned. And melted shells do not roll around. And under the spruce paws are cones, not bulletproof vests.

Damaged military equipment on the street in the Kalmiussky district of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

But right now, apricots are blooming here.

Ivan leads us to the entrance of the plant. The collapsed visor filled up half of the car; everything burned to the ground. A skinny dachshund runs out of the bushes and follows us. Photographer Tolya Zhdanov throws her a piece of sausage, specially reserved for such an occasion; The dog sniffs but does not eat. The day before, a familiar Donetsk journalist told me: “At the beginning of the week I saw such a beautiful dog in the ruins of Mariupol. Just like my parents, thoroughbred. I started stroking her, she licked ... and then I thought: she probably ate corpses, otherwise how did she survive here? I look at the dachshund, my stomach feels bad again. She looks at me and runs back into the bushes.

There are several helmets lying around the factory entrance; on a blue plastic stool - cardboard boxes with automatic cartridges; below it is a small pyramid of fuses from anti-tank mines. Ivan points to a plastic pallet - they usually bring beer to stores in such. Now there are bottles stuffed with rags.

Have you ever seen a Molotov Cocktail? It was prepared for us. Did not have time.

"Molotov cocktails"
Photo: Alexander Chernykh, Kommersant

It's dark on the first floor of the plant, you have to illuminate it with phones. A dim beam picks up shell casings and scraps of bandages. Two steps further - the watchman's chair, on which the bulletproof vest hangs. Behind the turnstiles is a long corridor; there, in the darkness, one can guess the geometry of metal cabinets, and behind them something completely bad. Like the location of a computer shooter, which Ivan probably played a couple of years ago, and the soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine standing on the other side, and all the boys who were born at the turn of the 80s and 90s. Only here it really smells of burning and, it seems, dead. I stand in the dark and try not to throw up in fear and disgust. Then I go out, keeping away from the pyramid of fuses. Ivan indifferently passes very close to them.

As we walk back, he talks a little about himself. From Donetsk, 24 years old, graduated from school, worked as a car mechanic, was mobilized. “They prepared me for the main course, and then... Well, what can I say, no one will teach you combat experience,” he says. “We learned everything here. You learn quickly here. Otherwise, you die quickly."

Consequences of shelling in the Kalmiussky district of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

"It's nice to meet a fellow countryman"
We say goodbye to Ivan and Danila. “Take care of yourself guys,” they (!) tell us. "And you". The fighters assure that “everything is clean nearby,” so I go at random from the “localities” of the DPR. Artillery cannonade is heard; far, but in the open space of the road is still very uncomfortable. Therefore, I try to huddle closer to the destroyed houses - as if they can give protection. After a couple of blocks*, a measured rattle is heard from the yard; I carefully peek in and see a white van with "Children" written in big red letters. The windshield is not even broken, but crushed - like thin ice that has been stepped on by a boot. On the side in the triangle of the letter "D" there is a large hole gaping, around a scattering of smaller holes.

Nearby stands a grandfather with a gray beard. He scratches loudly on the pavement with a heavy garden shovel, slowly raking the debris into a heap.

- I'm from Russia. Can I talk to you?

- Yes, why not. You are the same person as me.

Consequences of shelling in the Kalmiussky district of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

Grandfather Vasya lived in Kamensk, a village near Mariupol. In the first days of the war, a shell fell nearby; Windows of all the houses on Kamenskaya Street were blown out. Then the military drove through the village: “I don’t know what kind, now everyone has the same uniform.” He didn't know what to do or where to hide.

Thank God they took me away. Young guys, I don't even know their names. They said: "Evacuation, grandfather, we must go." They brought them to Mariupol to the square and left them there. Find shelter somewhere, they say. And how to look for it? But people came up, completely strangers, called to their basement. Thank them. So I've been living in the basement ever since. I am 82 years old - and neither wash nor shave ... I really want to go home, but how to get there? And do I even have a home? Yesterday I talked with the guys, - he waves in the direction of "sweeping", - normal guys. To be honest, I don’t understand, whose are they, Russian or Ukrainian?

- Donetsk.

- Donetsk? Wow, I once worked in Donetsk. Well, they are normal boys. They say: "Uncle Vasya, we ourselves want to go home." So I ask them: “Guys, can you take me to Kamensk? I have a dog and a cat there. I love them ... but they are probably no longer alive ... "

Hunched over, grandfather Vasya leans on a shovel and begins to cry. I awkwardly hug him; it is very, very light.

“I want to go home,” he sobs. “There are rumors that they completely destroyed my street. So I don't have a home anymore. But these guys, the military, told me: "Don't worry ahead of time, don't trust anyone, you have to see with your own eyes." But they can't take me...

To calm my grandfather, I ask him about a peaceful life.

- I have a Ukrainian passport, which means I am Ukrainian. But I tell everyone that I have three nationalities.

- What is it like?

- But like this. I was born in Moldova. Then he lived in Ukraine, his family was from the Chernivtsi region. And then he went to Siberia, lived in Tomsk for a long time.

- And I was born in Tomsk.

- Seriously?! - gasps grandfather. He straightens up, solemnly holds out his hand to me, and shakes his hand firmly. I know Tomsk well. City of students, that's what they called it. When I lived there, Ligachev was the first secretary of the regional party committee. Reformer of booze and alcoholism...

View of the territory of the metallurgical plant "Azovstal"
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

- And how did you get here?

- This open-hearth was built here. Well, factory. There was an all-Union Komsomol construction site, young people were invited here. I arrived, learned to be a driver, drove concrete, sand, mortar. He married and stayed here. And before, as it was, each production should offer one or two people to the police. And in 1972 I got from open-hearth into this group. I liked the police. At first he was a district police officer, then he was sent to a special regiment for the protection of drinking water reservoirs in the Donetsk region. We made sure that there was no explosion, sabotage. I liked the job, it's good. Married, son, daughter, everything is like everyone else. In 1993 he finished his service. They gave a meager pension, of course, then they added ... well, it was possible to live. If you have a home...

He starts sobbing again, and I try to change the subject:

- Where are your children?

- And you, in Russia, in the Krasnodar Territory. The son was also a policeman, that is, a policeman. Previously, he often came, but after 2014 it is rare, you know, it is difficult for a law enforcement officer to go to Ukraine.

I try to ask more about the children, but he answers out of place: either old man's forgetfulness, or some kind of unhappy family history. He does not remember the phone numbers of his relatives by heart - he was in such a hurry to evacuate that he forgot the piece of paper with the numbers. Saying goodbye, we shake hands again. Grandfather Vasya takes up a shovel.

- You know, in Soviet times they called us garbage, I was so offended. And now this is what I came to in my old age: I really dig in the garbage.

Garbage dump
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

"That's the thing - food"
In the neighboring yard * at the entrance there is a whole collection. Several women cook food on a grill converted into a stove. Stick-branches are burning, a frying pan with a very thin layer of roasted carrots is sizzling. Women ask not to take them off - “Otherwise they will bomb us to the end”, but they willingly tell how they have been living here since February:

- We had immigrants from the Donbass in our house, from the age of 14, who did not like the new government. So, as it began, they immediately broke down, left everything and left. They knew what it was. But we did not know - now we live in the basement.

- How many of you are here?

- 35 people with us and 50 in a neighboring house. We sit on each other's heads. We have a grandmother, she is 98 years old, can you imagine? She is already deeply lying ... But we take care of her, of course.

Women tell how they lived in the first weeks of the war:

- There were such fights! Either a shell will fly in, then a plane will fly to bomb the plant and hook our garages, then the military will pass through the yard.

Residents in the courtyard of a residential building in the Pravoberezhny district of the city. teenagers playing cards
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

- Why the plane, we have a tank at home three times fired point-blank.

“We have burned down so many apartments. As soon as the shelling is over, we run and extinguish with a shovel and sand... There Zhenya*, a mother of two children, is with me... And what is especially dangerous here is that the roof is on fire, sparks are pouring, and the windows have long been broken. And in every room there are either curtains, or curtains, or oilcloths on the table by the window. So from the sparks of the apartment and lit up. Look: all around are ruins, ruins...

Multi-storey residential buildings damaged by shelling in Pravoberezhny district of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

- Neighbors, when they left, left us a key - to feed the parrot. There a spark flew to them, everything ignited in a second. And burned to the end.

A middle-aged man comes into the yard - and next to him, that very thin dachshund from the factory scurries merrily. I feel ashamed that I thought badly of her.

- What is the dog's name?

“Filimon,” the man replies sedately.

Filimon! With such a name, the dachshund immediately begins to look more solid and even seems to be larger.

Dachshund in Mariupol
Photo: Alexander Chernykh, Kommersant

Gradually, the women return to the stove, Ekaterina* remains with me. She asks carefully:

- Will the authorities read you? Can you tell them something very important? Just don't name who we are and what we're complaining about, God forbid. We have enough problems. But here's the deal: food. I know that food is being given out now. In the Metro area, somewhere else. You come with a passport, they give you rations - and cereals, and sugar, and even pastes. But someone simply does not have a passport - burned down, lost. And someone can not reach for health reasons. Here I am a pensioner, a disabled person of the second group. Ten kilometers on foot is a long way for me, you understand? Therefore, it is necessary that rations be distributed centrally to the yards. You don't need a lot - just cereals, canned food, bread ... cigarettes, otherwise there are a lot of smokers. We will share already. At least something, at least a little bit, but everyone will get it. After all, not everyone has food.

— What do you eat here?

It turned out to be the wrong question. Catherine's voice immediately begins to tremble.

- That's what was bought at home on February 24, then I eat it. I have not been to the stores since then, because there are no more stores. What were the cereals, pasta, then I ate. Now you know what my pan looks like? There's oatmeal. A little oatmeal, three liters of water ... And that's it. Sometimes I will ask my neighbors for a couple of potatoes, I’ll grind pasta, I’ll make brews ... Oh, it’s better not to ask, for me this is a very painful topic. So humiliating...

Distribution of humanitarian aid to residents of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

"But what's so humiliating about that?"

“You won't understand me. I'm sorry, but you won't understand. Look, the neighbors are frying pancakes there. There, you see, on the corner of the house, closer to the graves. Of course they know I'm hungry. Of course, they always offer me two or three pancakes. But what are these pancakes, they are tiny. And after all, they themselves also need it, they themselves have little food. Therefore, I look at the pancakes and always refuse, I say: "Thank you, I'm full." Although, of course, I'm not full, and they know it too. And everyone is uncomfortable and painful. So write: we do not grumble, we do not complain. The most important thing is that now there is the simplest help. Something from food. If they had brought rations to the yard, we would have held out for another week. And they lasted another week. And then everything will be fine. I think it will definitely get better.

I write down her words in a notebook and in the most businesslike tone I ask what else needs to be handed over to the authorities, although I don’t know which one. It helps - Ekaterina speaks more calmly:

Still need a connection. Same situation with her. It seems that they give Phoenix cards (a mobile operator that operates on the territory of the DPR. - Kommersant ), but again, you have to go far for them and stand in line for a long time. And communication is very important. Here I have a daughter and a granddaughter of ten years old - they live on the other side of the city. It seems not so far, but it is in ordinary life. And on February 24, the connection disappeared, the transport did not go, they were constantly shooting ... and all this time I did not know anything about my daughter and granddaughter. I thought about them every day, every hour. You just put yourself in my place.

The queue of residents of Mariupol for water
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

I understand with horror that in Moscow, without a map in my phone, I simply could not walk from Polezhaevskaya to, say, Baumanskaya. What can we say about shelling and snipers.

- ... Only this week volunteers came with lists. It turned out that the daughter and granddaughter are alive! It turned out that they fled through the villages on foot, without things, without anything. As a result, we got to Rostov, now they are looking for me there. They gave me their new phone, but I can't even call them because I don't have a card.

— Let me call them, when I get back to Donetsk?

- And can you? gasps the woman. “Thank you very much!” Come on, I'll just find a piece of paper with their number.

“Our Mariupol is a demonstration performance”
I am waiting for Ekaterina at the entrance to the basement and asking people how the military behaved. After that, they demand not only to turn off the recorder, but also to remove the notepad. And then they start arguing with each other.

“These APUs, they were right in our yard,” Evgenia* begins. “My husband comes out in the morning, and they drink coffee on the hood of the car. Then behind the same machines they exchanged fire with the Russians.

“So it’s military time,” retorts a peppy grandfather in a sweatshirt and a knitted hat. “We need to fight somewhere. So they fought where they need to.

- Yeah, and they also wanted to sit in our basement. Together with civilians!

- After all, everyone wants to live, - the grandfather shrugs. - If they started shooting at you, you would also run into the basement. And don't care who's there.

— Do you remember, the Armed Forces of Ukraine sat down in that house on the fourth floor? Therefore, they shot at him from a tank.

- Do you remember how the Russians then settled in our house? - the grandfather taunts. - They also sorted out apartments, not every one suited them. And in the one that was necessary, the door was knocked out.

“Well, it’s because the owners left,” another woman intercedes. “The Russians then asked for the keys to the apartments. And they only knocked out the door for which there were no keys.

- And who took the car in the yard? We went in and asked whose car it was. And come on, they say, the keys to the needs of the army.

And I don't know who took it. The military - and whose, I did not even look.

“In general, guys and girls, both of them shoot, and we are between them,” concludes the grandfather.

“That’s what I don’t understand,” Yevgenia boils over. “Well, if you, Commander-in-Chief, know that you can’t hold Mariupol, then why fight? Withdraw troops. Why did so many people die? Why destroy the city?

“So it’s not just Mariupol,” the grandfather explains calmly. “The Russians are stuck here – it was easier for Ukrainians in other places.

He turns to me:

"Can you tell me what's going on right now?" How is Kyiv? Kherson? Kharkov? Odessa?

How are the negotiations? - adds an important woman.

Photo gallery
Consequences of fighting in Mariupol

Look

I am talking about the withdrawal of Russian troops from the Kiev region and the fact that Russia calls it a gesture of goodwill, and Ukraine calls the retreat of the enemy. I tell you that they are shooting hard near Kharkov, but Odessa, it seems, has not yet been stormed. That negotiations are ongoing, but what they are about is unknown. That the cruiser Moskva sank, and no one knows exactly what happened to it. Grandfather listens and nods measuredly.

“In short, it was all started for us,” he concludes. “Our Mariupol is a demonstration performance. And what do you say about it in Russia?

- That this is a special operation to free the Russian people from the Nazis.

Grandfather chuckles, takes off his hat and smoothes his gray hair, which has grown a lot in two months of basement life.

- That is, they decided to cut our hair, but at the same time they took off our shoes and stripped us and left us without a home.

“It’s good that it’s not without a head,” the woman adds.

“It turns out that we are relatives”
Ekaterina has not yet returned with a phone number, I ask Evgenia to take me to the graves. Nearby, a man collects garbage from the lawn. A black mound, a cross made of pieces of plinth, a frame with a note is nailed to it: first name, last name, years of life, “Remember, love, mourn.” Neat female handwriting. Mom.

- Only 24 years old ... How did he die?

- My husband was standing at the entrance, he saw everything. The guy walked away from the house to the courtyard - to this playground. There was such a sound - fluff! — and he fell. We thought he stumbled, and then we see a pool of blood from his head. How many rains there were, but the red spot is still visible ... In general, the sniper took it off. Whose, we don't know. For three or four days he lay on the playground. We were even afraid to approach. Such attacks were going on - we did not leave the basement.

The man bends down and takes out some kind of military piece of iron from the grass. Hands me:

“Here’s a present for you, the press.”

“No, no, I don’t need that.

- No need? And we did not ask for such gifts either!

He takes her away, to the garages stitched like a sieve.

- There is another neighbor of ours lying there, - shows Yevgenia. - He was killed by shrapnel. There was the first explosion, and he says, they say, I'll go get some water. He came out of the basement - and then it slammed again. One fragment in the neck, one somewhere else.

Somewhere very close there is a strong explosion. I startle reflexively, but the woman pays no attention to the sound.

By the way, you might be interested. When the Russians drove through our yard, they seemed to drive onto the lawn, and then they saw a cross - and drove past so as not to catch on.

Indeed, the rut on the grass goes around the graves.

- Evgenia, you know, I noticed how you argued with a neighbor ... And I want to ask you separately - and who are you for?

The woman looks at the graves, not at me.

The situation in Mariupol. Graves on one of the streets of the city
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

- My husband and I lived here, we gave birth to children so that we could have a family. We strived to give children an education, shoes, clothes, and food. We lived in Mariupol. Ukrainian, Russian... we lived in our city. You asked for whom I am - here I answered you. We are for no one, we are every man for himself. Each for their children.

- But still, you are a citizen of Ukraine - in theory, you should be for your army ...

- Here after all what attitude. My husband used to lock the basement door from the inside when the fighting started. And a man from the Armed Forces of Ukraine runs up and pulls the door - don't close it, he says. Like, if something goes wrong there, they would run up the stairs to us. To our children. Cover up, it turns out. And when the Russians arrived, their senior went into the basement - hello, tra-ta-ta, how are you, is everything okay. Passed, looked, how many people, whether there are children. They had the opportunity, they brought bread, some canned food, butter.

There is another explosion.

- They brought something to the little ones ... "Children," they say, "this is for you, take it."

— What do you think to do next?

- Live. The husband is slowly fixing the roof. Although our house is full of holes. Well, then, we will help the neighbors. And think about what to do next.

We return to the basement. Ekaterina brings a piece of paper with her daughter's number, another woman asks to call her sister - and adds: "She lives with me in the Lipetsk region."

- Wow! So my parents are from the Lipetsk region. Where is she?

- In Yelets.

- Quite near.

- Well, it’s necessary, - a woman from the Mariupol basement rejoices. - It turns out that we are relatives.

"I could still live!"

Consequences of shelling in the Kalmiussky district. Local residents bury relatives in the courtyard of a residential building
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

In a nearby yard, two middle-aged men are digging a grave, cursing irritably over rocks. They discuss the same problems - there is a humanitarian aid, but far away, at least a bicycle is needed. And he is not.

- Guys, share a smoke, huh? Since February, there are no cigarettes.

We pour out cigarettes; I ask who the grave is for.

“My grandfather, Nikolai Vladimirovich,” the man in the torn jacket replies, taking a puff. “He always had a bad heart. When the dill was still standing, I wanted to rattle it to the city by car. Dill seemed to have promised to let them in, and then they started shooting, they hooked the car, and that's all. Then the Russians entered. I asked him to take him to the hospital, the boys seemed to promise, and then they left the plant to beat. Then I was not in the basement at night, and then he died.

Local residents on one of the streets of Mariupol
Photo: Anatoly Zhdanov, Kommersant

- Do you know if they are going to rebury them from the yards at all? - asks his senior comrade. - So we went to the recreation center "Iskra" for water, and there along the road - crosses, crosses ... What will happen now in the spring? After all, people were buried shallowly, without coffins. They will start to stink. What are the sanitary standards?

Why are you asking them, they are not lawyers.

Cursing, they finish off a shallow hole. A young strong man in overalls comes up. Together they bring the body, using a rusty ladder as a stretcher. Nikolai Vladimirovich is wrapped in a warm yellow-brown blanket. Legs protrude from the blanket, one has a boot, the other has only a black sock. Polyethylene is spread at the bottom of the grave, then a bundle with the body is placed there.

- Head to the north should be, but this is not the north.

- He won't be long. He will be reburied anyway.

- The cross still needs to be put up.

- I'll find it, I'll put it on.

Everyone silently looks at the bundle with the dead man.

- Hey ... well, at least he didn’t suffer? the grandson asks.

- Well, how can I say, I didn’t suffer ... - the young man answers thoughtfully. - At night he went to the potty, grabbed his heart, fell, groaned and died. And that's it.

The grandson nods. The body is wrapped in polyethylene, a board is placed on top.

“Kingdom of Heaven,” says the elder. And continues with selective obscene swearing. Scolding drowns out another loud explosion - just like thunder from heaven.

The grave is buried together. And then we all wait for some last word.

- 73 years old. You could still live! - the grandson says angrily. - Lie down here, grandfather. Wait ***, better times.

***
We go back to the car. On the way, a woman calls out to us: "Dear press, come, please." I'm coming. She points to the basement, which was a shop a couple of months ago:

- Tell someone, please: at Nikopolskaya, 138 lies a corpse. It's not ours, we don't know it. Let someone pick him up and bury him.

What happens after the entry of Russian troops into Ukraine. Day 54
In the dark, a dead person is really visible. There is no fighting in this part of the city now, but the bodies of the dead come across on the street - you can see from them that they have been lying for more than one day. We drive slowly along Nikopolsky Prospekt. A man lies directly under a traffic light at a crossroads, arms outstretched. The other is on the sidewalk, in a mess of wires. Another seems to be resting under a tree on the lawn. Well, I manage to notice garden cotton gloves in the hands of the person lying on the side of the road. On the other side of the road, a red jacket and bright white boots; the face is not visible, but the clothes seem to be a woman. Nearby is a man in a blue jacket, face down. At the burnt-out bus stop there is another one with a fashionable red backpack: a jar of what looks like jam rolled out of it onto the pavement. A larger jar, it seems, with homemade pickles, neatly stands nearby.

Three more occupy a whole lane, the car has to go around them. I do not look out the window and do not turn around, I am afraid that the photographer will ask the driver to stop. The car drives a hundred meters and really stops. A man in a black jacket lies on his side, the bones of the skull are visible instead of a face. A teenage girl in a red jacket is face down on crossed arms, as if she is sleeping peacefully. The black face of an older woman is looking at the girl. Her hand is unnaturally twisted: it looks like she tried to crawl.

I try to read the Lord's Prayer to myself, but I stumble twice and start over. Then the photographer and I return to the car. We walk in silence through the dead spring.

On the very outskirts of the city, I notice a miraculously surviving auto shop. Those who entered the city from this side saw spray-painted inscriptions on it: “Glory to Ukraine! Russian, give up. Welcome to hell, Russian bastard." After a couple of kilometers, I see a concrete block dumped on the side of the road. Other words are drawn on it with black paint: “Akhmat strength” and “CHECHNYA!”

作者: testjhy 时间: 2022-4-20 06:08
看了第一个视频和后面的图片，没特别的感觉，这就是战争，覆巢之下，岂有完卵？作为最普通的老百姓，最期望战争别发生在身边，政客们更别把战火引到身边，可是马市老百姓能选择吗？

作者: 游泳的鱼 时间: 2022-4-20 06:16
这总比乌军占了顿，甘两州以后，把动乱引入俄罗斯边境州，俄罗斯人民流离于战火中好吧？只要美国有心搞事情，迟早要打起来。所以教员派兵入朝也是这样的考虑，在朝鲜打总好过在东北打。

作者: 鳕鱼邪恶 时间: 2022-4-20 07:22
乌军伏击了一个分发人道物资的车队，战果很大很牛！

作者: 小赵 时间: 2022-4-20 08:36
这个人有很多现场采访的记录，很多平民就是死在街上了。

https://www.youtube.com/c/PatrickLancasterNewsToday

作者: p3p2p1 时间: 2022-4-20 09:05
三百年的因，三十年的果。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-20 09:28

testjhy 发表于 2022-4-20 06:08
看了第一个视频和后面的图片，没特别的感觉，这就是战争，覆巢之下，岂有完卵？作为最普通的老百姓，最期望 ...

我觉得对于那些“民主”国家来说，很难说老百姓不能选择。

作者: 游泳的鱼 时间: 2022-4-20 10:06

看客发表于 2022-4-20 09:28
我觉得对于那些“民主”国家来说，很难说老百姓不能选择。

总有些团体，党派，地区，国家想要替西方主子做打手，帮主子打压Field slave 来过着House slave 高人一等的生活。台湾、香港、波兰，波罗的海三国和乌克兰都是拼命要做House slave的。要是主子们认定的Field slave不肯认命，那被打了真的是活该。

作者: semtex 时间: 2022-4-20 10:22
乌克兰这些政客，对自己的人民毫无感情。

作者: testjhy 时间: 2022-4-20 10:39

看客发表于 2022-4-20 09:28
我觉得对于那些“民主”国家来说，很难说老百姓不能选择。

象东乌特别是卢顿两地老百姓根本没有选择权，目前的态势下，会有乌克兰会有停战的选举人出现吗？

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-20 12:39

testjhy 发表于 2022-4-19 21:39
象东乌特别是卢顿两地老百姓根本没有选择权，目前的态势下，会有乌克兰会有停战的选举人出现吗？ ...

顿巴斯地区事实上已经在俄国统治之下，无所谓选择不选择了

乌克兰其余地区，同情俄国人的只会迅速消失或者被消声。。。这个就像抗战期间的“敌未出国土前言和即汉奸”，仗越打死结结得也越大。。。

如果说有主动选择权的话，俄罗斯人的应该更大，毕竟他们现在还没到流离失所、生死由命的地步。亡羊补牢，犹未晚也。点燃战火容易，怎么熄灭可就不好说了

作者: testjhy 时间: 2022-4-20 15:17

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-20 12:39
顿巴斯地区事实上已经在俄国统治之下，无所谓选择不选择了

乌克兰其余地区，同情俄国人的只会迅速消失或 ...

原来两州俄罗斯的控制区也是不到整个州的一半吗？现在都占领了？

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-20 21:25

testjhy 发表于 2022-4-20 10:39
象东乌特别是卢顿两地老百姓根本没有选择权，目前的态势下，会有乌克兰会有停战的选举人出现吗？ ...

这两个地方的老百姓不接受泽连斯基，所以选择了独立么。
至于把泽连斯基选上去的那些老百姓，要是知道把他选上去会有今天这样的后果，还会选他么？
之所以这么说，是因为当年希特勒也是选上台的，所以那个时代的普通德国人并不无辜，德国人战后反思，这是一个绕不过去的问题。
至于说停战的选举人，我在开战第一天就说过，俄占区搞维持会，事后补民主手续是常规操作。尤其是卢顿两州，有民意基础，可以水到渠成。大概半个月前，有消息说赫尔松成立了一个好像叫“军民政府”这么一个组织，我可以说是既不出所料又感到意外。不出所料是因为开战的时候就有这样的预判；感到意外是仗打了这么久才出现第一个“维持会”，而这个维持会居然不在乌东而是在乌南的顶西边。
这几乎可以说是族群分裂的必然结果。而且我设想这一幕的时候可没想到会先发生在欧洲，发生在俄乌之间，我原先是设想美国内部分裂，二次内战来着。不过那就说远了。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-20 22:06

看客发表于 2022-4-20 08:25
这两个地方的老百姓不接受泽连斯基，所以选择了独立么。
至于把泽连斯基选上去的那些老百姓，要是知道把 ...

这话说的，晋察冀边区民主大选举选出来了共产党人为主的联合政府，如果知道后来“五一大扫荡”的惨状，还会选他们么？所以那个时代的华北老百姓，并不无辜？他们“反思”了没？

作者: 老财迷 时间: 2022-4-20 22:39

testjhy 发表于 2022-4-20 15:17
原来两州俄罗斯的控制区也是不到整个州的一半吗？现在都占领了？

还没全占领。
开战前，乌军有9个旅在那准备围攻卢、顿，基本都在卢、顿州界内。
这两天才开始进攻这9个旅，哪天能歼灭5个旅，小泽就有谈判诚意了；全歼9个旅，就是真的全部占领卢、顿两州，基本能结束战役了。
美国送武器也不管用，一时哪能训练出那么多士兵。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-21 10:15

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-20 22:06
这话说的，晋察冀边区民主大选举选出来了共产党人为主的联合政府，如果知道后来“五一大扫荡”的惨状，还 ...

王外马甲在《抵抗者》的最后写过，侵入云南的日本侵略者在石墙上写“抵抗者死”，水族的英雄们在旁纷纷留名：“抵抗者XXX”。如果有一天，这些英雄们赴难，不会有一个认为自己是“无辜的”。
不管华北老百姓选不选联合政府，只要当地有抗日势力存在，也不管抗日的是不是共产党人，那么即便没有“五一大扫荡”，也会有“六一大扫荡”、“七一大扫荡”……而如果华北老百姓放弃抵抗，那结果不就是被彻底掠夺、任意屠杀，一如敌占区，那跟天天被“扫荡”有什么区别呢？这一点当时的老百姓早就看得很清楚了，所以八路到来之前，当地早就开始自发抗日，无辜不无辜的伪问题在日本人烧杀抢掠的那一刻就已经再明白无误了，毕竟不是中共或者国民政府组织了“华约”东扩到“日本人的地盘”，那以后没有一个反抗者会觉得自己被杀是无辜的——他们是自觉的，这个词太贬低他们了。
所以是的，老百姓还会选他们，并且一直选他们直到胜利。这就是老百姓“反思”后做出的选择，也是历史上确定发生的事实。
老百姓的“反思”当然也可以导致他们做出别的选择。现实是当年的共产党要面对拉锯区反复争夺造成的民生凋敝和民心涣散。刘伯承在大别山整顿军纪的时候说过一句话可谓振聋发聩：“老百姓不是注定要跟共产党走的”！所以不要说华北老百姓乃至全国老百姓不能选择或者不会再这样选，共产党能有今天就是中国老百姓反复“反思”后选择的结果。
回到乌克兰的问题上来，亚努科维奇被推翻前，俄罗斯压迫乌克兰了吗？乌克兰民间有自发抗俄吗？亚努科维奇是合法选上去的，既然乌克兰老百姓不能维护自己的民主成果，那么当然要承担由此带来的后果，一如华北老百姓如果不能保住联合政府所可能导致的后果。所以是的，乌克兰老百姓并不无辜。哪怕你是站在乌克兰的立场，都不能用无辜这个词贬低他们。他们要不要反思，那要看他们从战争中获得了什么。中国老百姓反思了，决定我们要反抗以获取民族独立，并最终获得了民族独立。乌克兰老百姓获得了什么，他们打算通过战争获取什么，难道他们自己不该反思反思吗？

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-21 10:33

看客发表于 2022-4-20 21:15
王外马甲在《抵抗者》的最后写过，侵入云南的日本侵略者在石墙上写“抵抗者死”，水族的英雄们在旁纷纷留 ...

乌克兰老百姓无辜不无辜的伪问题在俄国人烧杀抢掠的那一刻就已经再明白无误了

无论你站着谁的立场上，也没有资格指着任何一具平头百姓的尸体，指责他死不足惜 — 谁都不应该死。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-21 11:06

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 10:33
乌克兰老百姓无辜不无辜的伪问题在俄国人烧杀抢掠的那一刻就已经再明白无误了

无论你站着谁的立场上，也 ...

俄国人烧杀抢掠那是俄国人不无辜。乌克兰人十多年来一直就在东部烧杀抢掠，所以不无辜。这就是你忽略了我“一如华北老百姓如果不能保住联合政府所可能导致的后果”这句话的结果。你看我前面没提乌克兰人在顿巴斯的恶行，算不算是站在乌克兰的立场上替乌克兰掩盖呢？
我查了一下字典，字典说“无辜”的意思是“清白无罪的”。这意思跟“死不足惜”差得可有点远。
所以你看，无辜不无辜，要打出个结果才能由胜利者定义哩。我怎么看都觉着乌克兰不像是那个胜利者。
战争就是战争，没有那么多应该不应该。讲道理，真要说有什么应该不应该的，那就是战争这事儿根本就不应该发生。战争本身就是不正常的，死人这事，在不正常的战争里那是再正常不过了。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-21 12:42

看客发表于 2022-4-20 22:06
俄国人烧杀抢掠那是俄国人不无辜。乌克兰人十多年来一直就在东部烧杀抢掠，所以不无辜。这就是你忽略了我 ...

日本人当年发动九一八的借口之一就是日本侨民遭到残杀 - 你也可以说这是“中国人在，东北的烧杀抢掠”，这是“中国人在东北的恶行” -- 跟俄国人指控乌克兰人如出一辙。有没有杀戮？到底是谁在杀谁？凭什么你觉得自己就比乌克兰人知道得更清楚？凭什么就觉得自己有资格去指摘他们？就凭多看了两篇微信公众号的文章？

乌克兰人无辜还是有辜，这个不是我，也不是你，能下断语。战争是要死人的这没错，但至少不要把这种丑恶正大光明化，不要搞成理所当然，不要觉得人家幼稚，死了白死。

不管最后谁是胜利者，哪个平民都不应该死 - 需要反思的不应该是尸横遍野无人收敛的百姓

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-21 21:22

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 12:42
日本人当年发动九一八的借口之一就是日本侨民遭到残杀 - 你也可以说这是“中国人在，东北的烧杀抢掠”， ...

我从“无辜”在字典中的定义——“清白无罪的”——接着往下说。
我在引用王外马甲故事的时候提到过一句，抗日的“英雄们赴难，不会有一个认为自己是‘无辜的’”。为什么？因为中国军民在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义，没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜是个伪问题。所以你问我“那个时代的华北老百姓，并不无辜？”我说是的，反抗者不会觉得自己被杀是无辜的——他们是自觉的。他们不接受别人评判自己是否无辜，因为他们这个群体是胜利者，谁无辜谁有罪要由他们这个群体来决定。如果你要判定某些人是否无辜，那至少你先打赢战争，作为胜利者开办法庭再说，所以德国人不但不无辜，还应该反思，因为他们输了，他们合法选出的领导人被判有罪，那么他们作为选民是否要共担罪责是不可回避的问题，否则德国人无法自处。
中国人是抗战的胜利者，所以不接受自己是否“无辜”的质询。但乌克兰不是，乌克兰当前这个法西斯政权是如此的令人作呕，令人在同情乌克兰人民的同时不得不坚决与这个政权划清界限，以免自己被误认为是同情这帮政客。这个政权的领导人绝对有罪，绝对不是无辜的，与纳粹德国的情况类似，乌克兰的选民们有必要反思为什么自己选了这么一帮货出来。至于说乌克兰人民是否无辜，你如果认真看了我的观点就会了解，不论从我的观点还是你的观点出发，他们都不无辜。从我的观点，他们要么是选出了有罪的领导人，他们要共担罪责，要么是没能保住民主成果，任由合法的亚努科维奇被推翻；从你的观点，他们自觉反抗侵略，具有正义性，没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，他们的自觉性不会认为自己“无辜”。
除非他们并不“自觉”，那就真的是“不幸”了。你主贴里反映的，就是并不“自觉”的乌克兰人。不自觉反抗俄国人，也不自觉反抗将他们带入灾难的政客。
大概来说就是这样吧，你我对乌克兰人民的态度，差异就在于你是“哀其不幸”，我是“怒其不争”。不要入戏太深。
顺便说一句，虽然这句话普遍认为是鲁迅对中国人的态度，但其实鲁迅原话是解释诗人拜伦对英国人的态度。我看用在乌克兰人身上也并不违和。
下面说说你这个帖子的问题。
你把俄国人比作日本人，好吧，那我们就一一对应起来吧。既然在你眼里俄国人是侵略者，是日本人，那么乌克兰就是东北的中国人，乌克兰政府在东部地区杀说俄语的顿巴斯人，相当于东三省的中国人杀日本侨民。我就问一句，顿巴斯人祖居顿巴斯，日本侨民祖居东三省吗？当年东北的所谓“日本侨民”，是中国人民请来的么？东三省是无主之地么？日本人想来就来？如果不是，那么他们就是侵略者，东三省军民在家门口反抗侵略者具有天然正义。至于怎么个杀法，是不是个个该杀，都不能抹杀反抗侵略的正义性。
所以“到底是谁在杀谁”？你凭什么就有资格以为我“多看了两篇微信公众号的文章”？就凭你入戏太深？
你后面那些车轱辘话我就直接否定吧，大家一言不合一拍两散。战争要死人是理所当然的，不死人就不叫战争，我不觉得俄国人或者乌克兰人幼稚，成年人各自承受，不承认战争要死人才是幼稚。人终有一死，不管他死于军人还是平民身份，军人也是百姓来的，百姓不反思，军人死了白死。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-21 21:57

看客发表于 2022-4-21 08:22
我从“无辜”在字典中的定义——“清白无罪的”——接着往下说。
我在引用王外马甲故事的时候提到过一句 ...

“在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义” - 非常正确

“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜是个伪问题” - 一点儿都没错啊，怎么到了乌克兰这儿就转不过弯了呢？

乌克兰人的政府是不是“法西斯”政权，你又有什么资格去评判呢？既不是你选出来的，又没有在那里住过。。。为什么就要一口咬定“令人作呕”？所以被推翻就是应该的？“保住民主成果”，你咋知道亚努科维奇就一定是代表了乌克兰人的最大利益？顿巴斯人祖居顿巴斯，你又凭什么就断定顿巴斯人个个都是心向俄罗斯？除非你有什么切身利益被乌克兰政府侵害了，否则立场从哪里来？

入戏太深的恐怕不是我，而是自觉代入大棋操盘手身份的吧？口水之争而已，没意思

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-21 22:22

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 21:57
“在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义” - 非常正确

“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜 ...

你还是先解释解释“日本侨民是不是祖居东三省”这事吧，别想滑过去，这可不是口水之争

顿巴斯人是不是个个心向俄罗斯我不知道，但肯定有多到不可忽略的人心不向这个乌克兰政权，不然那地方打不起来，就这么简单

亚努科维奇跟现总统一样未必代表乌克兰人的最大利益，但亚努科维奇至少也跟现总统一样是乌克兰人民合法选上去的，至少他在的时候乌克兰没跟俄国打仗吧？

这个政权有多么令人作呕，看看他的外交官要武器不要毛毯，看看法国记者拍的纪录片《顿巴斯》……你又有什么资格评判俄国人？你又有什么资格评判我？
我对俄乌双方都不持立场，你的立场倒是很鲜明啊。合着我要不支持你的立场就是反对你的立场？支持不绝对就是绝对不支持？那好啊，恭喜你，你赢得了一个对手——我不支持你的立场。
哦对了，还有一件事，就是“哪个平民都不应该死”这个事，我想不起来哪场战争没死过一个平民，麻烦提醒提醒我。不过既然有这么好的战争，怎么大家都不想打仗呢？不应该啊。麦帅你该给自己安排上啊，赶紧的，先来两打

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-21 22:42

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 21:57
“在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义” - 非常正确

“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜 ...

哦对了，这个也不能让你滑过去：“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜是个伪问题” - 一点儿都没错啊，怎么到了乌克兰这儿就转不过弯
我说过了，“中国人是抗战的胜利者，所以不接受自己是否“无辜”的质询。但乌克兰不是”，如果乌克兰“要判定某些人是否无辜，那至少你先打赢战争，作为胜利者开办法庭再说”，而我在更早的帖子里说了，“我怎么看都觉着乌克兰不像是那个胜利者。”
而“无辜”这个话题最早是我评论德国人在二战中的表现的，而你拿来类比选举晋察冀联合政府的华北老百姓，那我现在原话问你，你认为“那个时代的华北老百姓，并不无辜？”
不要跟我说无辜是个伪问题，你没有这个资格，因为这是我的观点我的逻辑。你问这个问题就是认定华北老百姓无辜，认为自己有这个资格判定华北老百姓清白无罪，其实你没这个资格，你不是胜利者，你这个问题是对抗日军民的侮辱。应该是华北抗日军民来判定日本侵略者的罪行才对。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-21 22:52

看客发表于 2022-4-21 09:22
你还是先解释解释“日本侨民是不是祖居东三省”这事吧，别想滑过去，这可不是口水之争
顿巴斯人是 ...

你看，承认了吧？立场哪里来？只不过是因为看了一个法国人的《顿巴斯》录像，就觉得他们是法西斯。。。然后就先入为主，对其他的视而不见了

涉及到区域种族冲突的事情向来非常复杂，绝对不是一段录像就能讲得清楚、讲得明白。更何况法国人的录像是不是实情你也不知道。

但是 “在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义” 和“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜是个伪问题” 这两句话说得非常好，给你鼓个掌

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-21 23:02

看客发表于 2022-4-21 09:42
哦对了，这个也不能让你滑过去：“没人有那个资格判定他们是否有罪，因而说他们是否无辜是个伪问题” - ...

俄国人侵略乌克兰，和日本人侵华，无论从动机还是手法，甚至到口号上，都一模一样，咋就不能打比方了？

日本人：大东亚共荣
俄国人：斯拉夫共荣

日本人：保护侨民
俄国人：解救受迫害的俄语人口

日本人：国民政府投靠美英，损害日本在东北的利益
俄国人：乌克兰政府投靠北约，损害俄国国家安全

日本人：在关东军的刺刀下搞伪满洲国
俄国人：在俄军坦克下搞LDR DDR独立

你这个问题是对抗日军民的侮辱

这么低级的道德指责还是算了，拉低了讨论水准，直接成口水仗了

作者: 鹰从天降 时间: 2022-4-21 23:50
本帖最后由鹰从天降于 2022-4-21 23:54 编辑

   战争肯定是要死人的，死的多惨一定就有多惨。所以TG对于战争的态度，就是一向反对战争，不要战争，爱好和平的。老毛在政协第一届全体会议上就说了，“我们的民族将从此列入爱好和平自由的世界各民族的大家庭，以勇敢而勤劳的姿态工作着，创造自己的文明和幸福”。这话说的，完全杜绝了中国人民想走帝国主义欺负别人、剥削别人的爽路，相反，从解放初到现在一直走的是艰苦奋斗的道路，神州各地996，5+2，白加黑，拼着命内卷、自己吃自己成长。
   但是老毛又指出，只要帝国主义存在，就无法改变其侵略他国、霸凌他国和互相争霸的本性，战争就不可避免。既然世界上还存在战争，第一是不怕，第二为了持久和平，就必须通过战争来消灭战争，用革命战争反对反革命战争。
   俄乌之战从表面上看，俄罗斯是侵略者，进行的是非正义的战争，乌克兰在家门口反抗侵略具有天然正义。我们从道义上应该支持乌克兰的正义战争，反对非正义战争。
   然而从俄乌之战的起因上看，主要是因为乌克兰人为了获得经济利益，主动投靠以美帝为首的跨大西洋联盟，威胁到了俄罗斯的安全利益。从尊重国家主权独立的角度上说，乌克兰做的也没错。但是，加入北约这个号称‘防御’，人畜无害，但其实是美帝军事政治工具的进攻性组织，实际上意味着乌克兰卖身充当了维护现有不合理世界秩序的帝国的马前卒和爪牙。而这种美帝从二战后精心设计和制造的不合理的世界秩序，也就是以G7为主的少数几个最富裕的先进资本主义国家，通过美（欧）元霸权、技术壁垒、军事压力、舆论控制等，对世界大多数人实行剥削和压榨，以维护其300年来因工业革命红利获得的霸权和物质优先享受权。在这种秩序下，中国和其他不发达民族只能永远996，辛辛苦苦毁了家园挖矿藏，出卖女人和原材料或者没日没夜工作，用10万件衬衣换1架飞机，而即使发达的少数头部国家底层人民也可以轻松喝咖啡度假，享受优美的自然环境。为什么说这个，是因为最近看到孟加拉国的石油、粮食和饲料价格疯涨，纺织工人都吃不上饭了，但是，居然孟加拉国货币对美元大幅贬值！孟加拉人只能用工作时间更长，吃得更少，以此向发达国家出口纺织品。而美国那边轻松用印钞就得到了更多价廉物美的商品。那么，到底是孟加拉国人犯了什么样的罪行，是他们侵略了乌克兰才得到了这样的待遇吗？
   所以我觉得，俄罗斯发动对乌克兰的战争看上去是非正义的战争，但另一方面，俄乌之战也可能是打响了反对以美帝为首建立的不公平、不合理世界等级秩序的第一枪。中国因为之前太过努力，居然想通过芯片、5G、大飞机吃掉欧美国家的蛋糕，取人钱财如伤人父母，是可忍孰不可忍，所以中国从18年开始就不断被美国、欧洲各种围堵、污蔑，其本质也就在这里。如果没有俄罗斯在前面挡这一枪，那么现在直面欧美斗争的就是中国。所以从反抗美欧英日澳帝国主义集团这个意义上讲，俄罗斯对乌克兰的战争又是正义的战争，也是我们可以支持的战争。
   在痛恨不断拱火、挑起战争的人的同时，也为遇难的乌克兰人致哀，为和平祈祷，希望战争早日结束。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-22 00:16

鹰从天降发表于 2022-4-21 10:50
战争肯定是要死人的，死的多惨一定就有多惨。所以TG对于战争的态度，就是一向反对战争，不要战争， ...

日本人当年侵华的第一大借口就是“防共” - 苏联东扩，向中国输出革命，渗透新疆和外蒙，严重威胁到了日本、满洲国乃至中国的生存。但中国政府却“联俄容共”，“认贼作父”。因此日本出兵中国，扶植蒙古和华北政权，是为了中国好，是为了防止中国“赤化”

在“防共”之后，日本又指责中国投靠欧美，“扰乱东亚秩序”。1935年广田弘毅的“广田三原则”，就明确要求‘中国摆脱对欧美的依赖”。

你看，在日本人看来，当年中国也是“卖身充当了维护现有不合理世界秩序的帝国的马前卒和爪牙”，是我们挑衅在先，该打！

这么荒谬的逻辑，咋么转身就理所当然地扣到别人头上了呢？

至于扯到孟加拉身上，还是歇了吧。米帝吃肉，天朝喝汤，只不过眼红吃不到肉而已。赶走了米帝自己来吃肉，顶多让孟加拉人喝汤罢了。。。到时候肯定不会有人提出“到底是孟加拉国人犯了什么样的罪行？”这样的疑问 -- 这个百分之百肯定

作者: 鹰从天降 时间: 2022-4-22 00:28

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-22 00:16
日本人当年侵华的第一大借口就是“防共” - 苏联东扩，向中国输出革命，渗透新疆和外蒙，严重威胁到了日 ...

防共是因为中国投靠苏联，“广田三原则”又是因为中国投靠欧美，合着中国自古以来是日本的兄弟之国，背信弃义投靠了除日本外的全世界，所以挑衅在先？这个逻辑，我不李姐。
另外，中国人特别是汉族政权，一般还是主张和而不同，以贸易为主的，邓小平代表共产党是在联合国大会上做过承诺的，中国不会成为帝国主义，如果中国变成了帝国主义，是号召全世界人民一起打到中帝的。这一点上所谓中帝赶走米帝自己吃肉，有点小人之心了。

作者: MacArthur 时间: 2022-4-22 01:10

鹰从天降发表于 2022-4-21 11:28
防共是因为中国投靠苏联，“广田三原则”又是因为中国投靠欧美，合着中国自古以来是日本的兄弟之国，背信弃义投靠了除日本外的全世界，所以挑衅在先？这个逻辑，我不李姐。

是啊，这么荒谬的逻辑，谁都没法理解。。。

所以安到乌克兰身上，也是同样不好理解。

至于说相信谁不相信谁的承诺，你要知道抗战那会儿日本有人是在真心实意地搞“大东亚共荣”，要推翻美英帝国主义统治，东亚人联合起来共同繁荣。信他也罢不信也罢，反正最终抗战打成什么样子大家都知道

指着动机说事儿没什么意思，无论是指责别人动机不纯也罢还是拿动机为自己做辩护也罢。还是唯结果是论吧

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-22 10:16

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 22:52
你看，承认了吧？立场哪里来？只不过是因为看了一个法国人的《顿巴斯》录像，就觉得他们是法西斯。。。 ...

看来你是不打算解释“日本侨民是不是祖居东三省”了。
这个问题之所以不能滑过去，是因为你用以对比的是“顿巴斯人祖居顿巴斯”，因而东三省的老百姓在家门口抗日的合法性不适用于乌克兰政府军在顿巴斯杀人。你用一堆问句虚张声势，并不能掩盖你的类比恰恰暴露了乌克兰现政权有罪。你如果不能将乌克兰政府与乌克兰人民切割，那么你这个类比就亲自例证了乌克兰人民并不无辜。
你现在说“区域种族冲突的事情向来非常复杂”，想装中立已经晚了，你对这个录像视而不见就是立场。你说我视而不见？那列出来吧，我对什么视而不见了？我是不是要把媒体上所有关于俄乌关系的消息一一列出并一一表态才不算视而不见？你这就跟算命的算出皮猴来一样离谱。公平起见，我不打算给你扣个“视而不见先入为主”的帽子，所以给你个机会让你解释解释“日本侨民是不是祖居东三省”的问题，你以为你避而不谈东拉西扯就能把大是大非的问题遮掩过去？
我不支持你的立场是因为你在乌克兰战争与抗日战争之间划等号，我不能支持你对抗日战争的这样一个立场，我当然要把这个等号批倒批臭，还要踏上一万只臭脚。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-22 10:33
本帖最后由看客于 2022-4-22 10:43 编辑

MacArthur 发表于 2022-4-21 23:02
俄国人侵略乌克兰，和日本人侵华，无论从动机还是手法，甚至到口号上，都一模一样，咋就不能打比方了？

...

能啊，我没说俄国人是清白无辜小白兔，我一定要在每句话前先谴责“俄罗斯入侵有罪”才能说话吗？就像几十年前中国人说话前必须先高呼“毛主席万岁”？你低级脑补之前是不是先回想一下自己都说过些啥？你昨天的原话是这样的：
“日本人当年发动九一八的借口之一就是日本侨民遭到残杀 - 你也可以说这是“中国人在，东北的烧杀抢掠”，这是“中国人在东北的恶行””
因为你后面跟了一堆问句，你的论证逻辑并不那么直观，所以我回帖中帮你捋了捋，我要是捋错了，你现在指出来还来得及：
“你把俄国人比作日本人，好吧，那我们就一一对应起来吧。既然在你眼里俄国人是侵略者，是日本人，那么乌克兰就是东北的中国人，乌克兰政府在东部地区杀说俄语的顿巴斯人，相当于东三省的中国人杀日本侨民。我就问一句，顿巴斯人祖居顿巴斯，日本侨民祖居东三省吗？”
所以还是那个问题，顿巴斯人祖居顿巴斯，日本侨民祖居东三省吗？
这是道德指责，但并不低级。从你将乌克兰战争比作抗日战争那一刻起，这个问题就已经不是口水仗了。你千方百计想把我最初回复T教授“乌克兰人民有没有选择”的问题转嫁成“俄罗斯入侵乌克兰是否邪恶”的问题，甚至不惜将乌克兰战争与抗日战争相提并论，这是事实上的侮辱，东北军民反抗家门口的日本侵略者怎么能跟乌克兰政府军杀害祖居顿巴斯的顿巴斯人相提并论？
这场战争没有赢家，也没有绝对的无辜者。

作者: togo 时间: 2022-4-22 11:30

看客发表于 2022-4-21 18:16
看来你是不打算解释“日本侨民是不是祖居东三省”了。
这个问题之所以不能滑过去，是因为你用以对比的是 ...

甲午战争胜利后日本吞并了朝鲜，名义上宣布了朝鲜人也是大日本帝国的侨民。在中国东北世代居住的朝鲜人也成为了日本人。了解一下“万宝山事件”，日本人借这件事威逼中国政府，借口保护侨民都做了什么事。反正是借口，说日本人（实际是朝鲜人）祖居东北也符合日本人的逻辑，借这个逻辑引导至九一八事变也就顺理成章了。

另外，日俄战争胜利后，了解一下日俄之间签订的”朴兹茅斯条约”，俄国把旅顺大连全部的土地和权利，以及长春至旅顺铁路及沿线的权益等等都给了日本，从此不算驻军日本大量移民中国东北。从日俄战争到九一八经过了二十多年，日本人在东北的存在并不能忽略。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-22 12:04

togo 发表于 2022-4-22 11:30
甲午战争胜利后日本吞并了朝鲜，名义上宣布了朝鲜人也是大日本帝国的侨民。在中国东北世代居住的朝鲜人也 ...

嗯嗯，说得好，涨姿势了。接着说，说说看万宝山事件怎么就“反正是借口”了，为什么是“借口”而不是理直气壮？说说“日本人祖居东北也符合日本人的逻辑”之外，中国人看这事的逻辑是什么？
我不是要反驳什么，我只是觉得你自己说清楚这些问题对你有好处。

作者: togo 时间: 2022-4-22 12:09

看客发表于 2022-4-21 20:04
嗯嗯，说得好，涨姿势了。接着说，说说看万宝山事件怎么就“反正是借口”了，为什么是“借口”而不是理直 ...

反正都是借口，某些人看来，日本人的借口不如俄爹的借口香而已。

作者: 看客 时间: 2022-4-22 12:14

togo 发表于 2022-4-22 12:09
反正都是借口，某些人看来，日本人的借口不如俄爹的借口香而已。

别这样，你这样容易让人误认为你认同日本人这套“逻辑”。

作者: togo 时间: 2022-4-22 12:46

看客发表于 2022-4-21 20:14
别这样，你这样容易让人误认为你认同日本人这套“逻辑”。

只是回答你有关日本人祖居辽东的问题。

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